The Emperor's New Clothes

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[Emperor's Clothes]

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Fox News Sunday
09:00 Sunday 16 September 2001
Special Report: America United
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===[BEGIN VIDEO CLIP]===
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: My message is for everybody who wears the uniform, get ready.
===[END VIDEO CLIP]===

TONY SNOW, HOST: This morning on a special two-hour broadcast, we'll preview America's response with Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld; Attorney General John Ashcroft; House Speaker Dennis Hastert; House Minority Leader Richard Gephardt; Senator John Kerry; Senator John McCain; New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani; former CIA Director James Woolsey; former House Speaker Newt Gingrich; Federal Emergency Management Agency Director Joe Allbaugh; Solicitor General Ted Olson; and our panel: Brit Hume, Mara Liasson, Bill Kristol and Juan Williams.

This is the September 16 edition of Fox News Sunday. Good morning, and welcome to a special edition of Fox News Sunday. Here's the latest news.

President Bush ordered American troops to prepare for war and asked citizens to get ready for a long, difficult assault against terrorism. The president labeled Osama bin Laden as the prime suspect in the terrorist attacks.

More than a dozen suspects have been arrested or detained so far, and 4,972 people still are missing from the World Trade Center. One hundred fifty-nine confirmed dead. At the Pentagon, the death toll stands at 188. Another 45 died in the plane that crashed in Pennsylvania.

We begin our coverage today with Fox News senior correspondent Jim Angle at Camp David.

Good morning, Jim.

JIM ANGLE, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Tony.

President Bush put the nation on a war footing as he met with top advisers at Camp David asking the public for patience and resolve as he plans what he called a sweeping and sustained campaign against terrorism.

===[BEGIN VIDEO CLIP]===
BUSH: We're at war. There's been an act of war declared upon America by terrorists, and we will respond accordingly. And I appreciate very much the American people understanding that.
===[END VIDEO CLIP]===

ANGLE: The president wouldn't talk about any plans for retaliation, but he's clearly settled on Osama bin Laden as the man responsible.

===[BEGIN VIDEO CLIP]===
BUSH: There is no question he is what we would call a prime suspect. And if he thinks he can hide and run from the United States or our allies, he will be sorely mistaken.
===[END VIDEO CLIP]===

ANGLE: We'll smoke the terrorists out of their holes, he said, and bring them to justice.

And officials are getting pledges of support for that from around the world.

===[BEGIN VIDEO CLIP]===
COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: We're pleased with not just rhetorical support but real support for whatever may lay ahead in this campaign.
===[END VIDEO CLIP]===

ANGLE: But retaliating isn't the only challenge facing the president. Tuesday's attacks have created another urgent problem: how to rebuild an already weak economy now reeling from $5 billion in property losses.

The administration will hold urgent meetings with airline executives this week after Continental said it's laying off 12,000 workers and warned of bankruptcy. Other airlines are warning of layoffs as well, some saying 100,000 jobs could disappear.

The airlines deliver cargo as well as people, so companies and even states such as Hawaii are pleading for the White House and Congress to act.

===[BEGIN VIDEO CLIP]===
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Please do not put at risk millions of jobs -- not tens of thousands -- millions of jobs.
===[END VIDEO CLIP]===

ANGLE: A growing concern at the White House prompted Mr. Bush to schedule an urgent meeting with economic advisers as early as today.

===[BEGIN VIDEO CLIP]===
BUSH: We hope, obviously, that the measures we take will allow the American economy to continue on.
===[END VIDEO CLIP]===

ANGLE: He urged people to return to work, saying America needs to get on with its life, mindful, of course, that a comprehensive on terrorism will need to draw on economic strength as well as military power -- Tony.

SNOW: Thanks, Jim.

Now joining us, our first guest, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld.

Secretary Rumsfeld, you've heard the president describe Osama bin Laden as the prime suspect. How important is bin Laden in the overall fight against terrorism?

DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: There's no question but that he is a prime suspect. The Al-Qaida organization, however, is a large, multi-headed effort that probably spans 60 countries, including the United States, and it is much bigger than one person.

And the problem is much broader. It is not just the Al-Qaida organization, there are other terrorist organizations in the world that have made it their business to reek great damage on others.

RUMSFELD: And the president has properly indicated that it is a war. It's a new kind of war. The old rhetoric, the old words aren't going to work quite right for this problem. We're going to have to reorder our priorities. We're going to, as he said, be resolute and patient.

It has to be very broadly based. It will be political, economic, diplomatic, military. It will be unconventional, what we do. And the reality is that the best defense against terrorism is an offense; that is to say, taking the battle to the terrorist organizations, and particularly to the countries across this globe that have for a period of years been tolerating, facilitating, financing and making possible the activities of those terrorists.

SNOW: How do you go after those countries?

RUMSFELD: The terrorist organizations themselves and the terrorists don't have targets of high value. They don't have armies and navies and air forces that one can go battle against. They don't have capital cities with high-value assets that they're reluctant to lose.

They work in the shadows. They operate in safehouses and apartments. And they use weapons that are distinctively different -- plastic knives, our own aircraft, in this case, to bring about the damage.

And they're trying to strike directly at the way of life of free people of the United States of America, and we have to understand that: That is their goal. They don't believe in freedom. They don't believe in our values, and their hope is to strike at it.

And we need to wage a long, broad, sustained effort. And I must say, I've been in and out of government for a lot of years, and, if I know anything, it's that we can put trust in the American people.

SNOW: You've talked about the strikes. Is this wave of strikes over, the terrorist strikes?

RUMSFELD: I think that until -- it will take -- this is something that involves not weeks or days but years, this effort. It is not a -- we've just seen a battle, and we lost.

SNOW: But the American people want to know whether this battle is over for now, or whether, in the next few days or weeks or in the next month or two, they should be living in fear.

RUMSFELD: One has to know that a terrorist can attack at any time and any place using any technique. And it is not physically possible to defend in every place at every time against every conceivable method.

We just saw the use of aircraft. It could be ships, it could be subways, it could be any number of things. We have been deeply concerned, since I assumed my post with President Bush, about the so- called "asymmetrical threats," the problems of -- of the reality that people don't want to contest our armies, navies, or air forces. They know they'll lose.

What they can do is use these asymmetrical threats of terrorism and chemical warfare and biological warfare and ballistic missiles and cruise missiles and cyber attacks. And we need to continue to work those problems.

SNOW: Does that mean they now have chemical and biological weapons?

RUMSFELD: There is no question but that a number of the countries that are harboring terrorist organizations throughout the world do, in fact, have chemical and biological weapons.

SNOW: Which countries are we talking about?

RUMSFELD: The list of countries that harbor terrorists is a public list, and we know of certain knowledge that any number of countries have those capabilities.

SNOW: You spoke before of unconventional attacks. One presumes that would be on some of those targets. What are we talking about?

RUMSFELD: I don't quite understand the question.

SNOW: You said early on that we were going to have to use unconventional methods in waging this war. What were you talking about?

RUMSFELD: Ah, yes. Well, I mean, if you do not have an army to go after or a navy to go after, you have to go after the network, and you have to then also go after the countries that are harboring.

Some of the countries that are harboring terrorist networks do, in fact, have high-value targets. They do have capitals, they do have armies, they do have...

SNOW: So you are saying, if some of those nations continue to harbor terrorists, we would not hesitate to strike high-value targets within those borders?

RUMSFELD: We have no choice. Either the United States acquiesces to the terrorists and becomes isolationist, turns inward, gives up our freedom -- the way they strike at us, at our way of life is so fundamental and central, because what we are is free people. And if we decide we can't do anything about this problem, we have no choice but to give up that freedom. And we can't do that.

SNOW: Do you trust Pakistan?

RUMSFELD: I guess I'm with President Reagan on things like that. I trust and verify. I am a person who -- I don't think that's the right word even, the right question. I think what we need to do is to go to the countries that we have knowledge and tell them it has to stop. And if it does not stop, we have to help stop it.

SNOW: It has been suggested that we might invite Iran in to join the coalition. Is that a wise request?

RUMSFELD: The president and the secretary of state and others have discussed these issues. Our goal is to stop countries from harboring and financing and fostering and facilitating worldwide terrorism against the United States of America and our interests, our friends and allies. To the extent a country is doing that, they'd best stop.

SNOW: Let's talk about how we respond. Let me begin with a personal experience. You were in the Pentagon when it was hit.

RUMSFELD: Yes.

SNOW: This is personal for you now, isn't it?

RUMSFELD: Well, of course, but personal in the sense it's our country that's at stake. Think of the thousands of people who are at dead -- more people than all the wars up to the Civil War. We lost more people this week than we did at Pearl Harbor. It's personal for America.

SNOW: Let me ask you, you were in the Pentagon. People at the Federal Aviation Administration contacted NORAD, and yet we were not able to get fighters to knock those planes out of the sky. In one case they called Langley Air Force Base in southern Virginia rather than Andrews Air Force Base which is next door. How did that happen?

RUMSFELD: Tony, it happens because the United States has not said to itself that it needs to stay on high alert every minute of the day. The Department of Defense has as its legal assignment, under the law, to defend from external threats.

Here was a person, a group of people in the United States using civilian aircraft. I mean, the idea of us sending up a fighter plane to shoot down an American aircraft filled with Americans is such an unusual thought.

Now, anytime planes go off track, NORAD is notified. But we have never maintained the kind of -- invested the kind of money to maintain an air cap over the United States on a continuous basis.

SNOW: Are we going to need to?

RUMSFELD: I think that you have to remember that a terrorist can attack at any time and any place using any technique. And if you were going to do that, you would have to do that with every subway, with every port, with every ship, with every crossroad, with every large gathering of human beings.

The way to deal with this problem is not to suddenly become a police state and say we're not going to be free and we're not going to go about our lives; it's to go after the people who are posing this very serious danger to the world. And that's what we need to do.

SNOW: There has been a lot of talk about assassination bans. Is that a bad idea?

RUMSFELD: I'm not a lawyer, but there's no question but that the United States needs to deal with the network, and the network involves people. And it's a matter of going after them and stopping them from doing what they're doing.

SNOW: In terms of defense, we've got to rethink everything. You've just been doing a defense review and now you have to do it again.

RUMSFELD: No, I don't. We have to review our priorities, but from January through Tuesday, we have focused on the new world we live in, on the need for homeland defense, on the need to reorder the priorities in the Department of Defense and in the U.S. government, and the need to recognize that we have to think anew about the world we're in.

SNOW: Let me ask you the questions everybody is asking. When it comes to fighting back, how soon?

RUMSFELD: Well, see, the question isn't how soon or how fast. It isn't a matter of -- this isn't going to be a few cruise missiles flying around on television for the world to see that something blew up.

The network that did this does not have things to blow up as such. They're in apartments, and they're using laptops, and they're using cell phones and they are functioning in the shadows, not out in front.

RUMSFELD: Now, the countries that are harboring them do. So I'm not suggesting that there will not be military action. There very likely will be. But it will have to be a broad effort over a long period of time, going after their finances, tracking them down. A lot of it's law enforcement. A lot of it will be special operations.

SNOW: And special operations, right now, we have 35,000 special operations forces. Do we need more?

RUMSFELD: Time will tell, but there's no question but that the people who -- God bless them -- who have volunteered for that work and trained themselves for it are important to our country. And they're particularly - - they're unconventional, and we're dealing in an unconventional time and we may very well need more of them.

SNOW: The president has called up 35,000 reserves. Do you expect further call-ups?

RUMSFELD: It's unclear. It depends on what happens next and the specialties we need to sustain the effort that we're currently engaged in.

It is stressful on the force to stay on high alert, and we're on alert DEFCON 4 across the globe, and we're on a state of Force Protection Charlie here in the United States and a relatively quite high alert. And that means it takes more people, more effort. We've got aircraft that are available on a 15-minute scramble strip alert.

But it's a mistake to think of this as something that's going to be dealt with in a short period. It is a big problem for the world.

SNOW: Is there anything to prevent us from going in and taking out Osama bin Laden?

RUMSFELD: Well, I mean, my goodness, if that were do-able. It's isn't a matter of him, it's a matter of his network. If he were not there, there'd be 15 or 20 or 30 other people who would step in and take care of those pieces.

Obviously, he's a prime suspect, but we have to be realistic. This is not a person that's the problem. It is a whole host of people and whole host of countries that are harboring those people and that has to stop.

SNOW: Two very quick questions. First, do we need to reopen production lines for the B2 and cruise missiles?

RUMSFELD: Obviously, we'll be addressing those, and it depends on what the demands may be. And those are decisions we'll be looking at in the period ahead, among others.

SNOW: You know there's been a spike in recruiting. Any prospect of reinvigorating the draft?

RUMSFELD: We have no plans to do that at the moment. The numbers of people we're able to attract and retain have been within the margin that we need, and I don't see that happening at the moment. I wouldn't rule out anything, however.

SNOW: All right, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, thanks for joining us.

RUMSFELD: Thank you, Tony.

SNOW: Now we're going to turn our focus to the investigation of Tuesday's attack. Fox News senior correspondent Rita Cosby joins us with the latest.

===[NEWSBREAK]===

SNOW: We're now joined from Camp David by the man running the investigation, Attorney General John Ashcroft.

Also here, Brit Hume, Washington managing editor of Fox News.

Attorney General Ashcroft, Rita Cosby has just referred to the fact that the FBI had on its watch list two men who went in, used their own names, actually enrolled them in airline frequent flier programs, bought tickets under their own names, boarded planes. How on earth did that happen?

JOHN ASHCROFT, ATTORNEY GENERAL: Well, obviously it's something we wouldn't want to have happen. We don't want those people in the country. This is a big country. We've got substantial freedom to travel. These individuals were able to do that. Obviously, there are things that we'd like to be able to stop that we haven't been able to stop.

SNOW: Sir, does the FBI not have access to that sort of thing? Or is this -- what sort of changes do you think are in order so that we can avoid this sort of calamity?

ASHCROFT: Well, obviously we'd like to stop individuals who are on any watch list before they come into the country. I'm not prepared to say and don't have an ability to say at what juncture they came into the country.

But we need additional tools in order to stop the kind of tragedy that happened. As a matter of fact, we'll be going to the Hill sometime in the next few days with a variety of upgrades and strengthening provisions in our statutes to help us do some things to curtail the assault of terrorism which we are fighting.

This is a very serious problem, terrorism. And these networks are worldwide. There are thousands of individuals in them. They operate with complexity. They've done very substantial acts which involve very significant technology. And yet, we have to upgrade our system to be able to deal with terrorists.

BRIT HUME, FOX NEWS: Mr. Attorney General, it's Brit Hume. Good morning.

ASHCROFT: Good morning.

HUME: Could you be more specific about what kinds of new authorities and upgrades, as you called them, you'll be seeking from the Congress?

ASHCROFT: For example, there are some things in our law which are favorable in terms of enforcement against, say, drug dealers and organized crime, which we don't have as tools against terrorists.

HUME: What sorts of things?

ASHCROFT: We need to provide an upgrade in what we can do in terms of money laundering that's associated with terrorism. An individual who conceals or harbors drug dealers is subject to elevated penalties and to special enforcement procedures. We need that for people who would conceal or harbor terrorists.

In terms of wiretapping, there are some things that -- it's easier to get a wiretap against a drug dealer or someone who's involved in illegal gambling than it is against terrorists.

Then there are some things we need to strengthen the law generally. For example, in our ability to provide intelligence through wiretaps, we get court orders, but those court orders are assigned to specific telephones, not to individuals. Well, technology has raced us past the point where a specific telephone is that valuable, because people change telephones.

You and I know that you can go into convenience stores or into large merchandising outlets and buy telephones that are disposable. So we need to be able to develop our capacity to surveil individuals, rather than the hardware people use.

ASHCROFT: These are some of the kinds of examples that we could and will be talking with the Congress to act promptly upon so that we strengthen our ability to take action against this kind of terrorist network which has not only assaulted the United States but has literally assaulted the world.

There are nations from Argentina to Zimbabwe that lost lives in these assaults on the United States this last week. And this is a challenge which we need the help of all nations, but we also are going to strengthen our own capacity to act and act aggressively.

HUME: Sir, let me ask you about something quite specific, and that is we now know that Barbara Olson, who was the first known victim of this attack, at least known to the country, telephoned her husband who works with you in the Justice Department, Ted Olson, solicitor general of the United States, after that flight was in the air and told him that the plane had been hijacked.

And he told us here on Fox News that he picked up the phone and called the relevant officials at the Department of Justice to respond. And it appears that we knew that plane was in the air, we knew it had been hijacked, presumably to some extent we knew where it was, and yet it appears nothing very much happened.

We've heard the defense secretary saying, you know, we're not equipped to shoot down planes. But what did we know, and what was attempted there with regard to that plane, sir?

ASHCROFT: Well, I'm not prepared to at this time to try and discuss all of the ramifications.

Obviously Ted was in his office in the Justice Department when his wife called him, and I don't know what the specific time sequence and intervals are. My heart goes out to Ted. I spent some time with Ted a day or so ago and called him on the day of the incident. Barbara was a wonderful leader in America. She was obviously a very active person in the political process.

But I'm not prepared to make conclusions, don't think we have enough evidence to make conclusions about those sequences at this time.

SNOW: Mr. Attorney General, one of your first actions in office was to go after racial profiling. Do you think in the wake of what's happened, if somebody at an airport detains somebody carrying a Saudi or a UAE or other kind of passport to ask a couple of questions that that's an unconscionable violation of civil rights and something worth investigation by the Department of Justice?

ASHCROFT: Well, the Department of Justice has made it clear that we don't think this is a time, we do not think this is a time for Arab- Americans or other Americans to be persecuted or otherwise the victims of activity that is inappropriate. And as a matter of fact, we've taken steps to make sure that Arab-Americans have their rights regarded.

SNOW: But, sir, I did not -- I specifically did not mention Arab- Americans.

ASHCROFT: This particular network, if you'll notice, has been operating in a way that has been focused on individuals who are associated with and been involved with those kinds of -- the Middle East-type terrorist organizations. And so we have to understand that in what we do.

HUME: Mr. Attorney General, though, the question that Tony raised, I think, is bound to be asked over and over again and probably needs to be confronted one way or another.

I mean, if you look at the names of all of those, all 19 of those people who were suspects in this case, they appear to come from a particular part of the world basically; they appear to fit a certain profile, if you will.

Profiling has become a dirty word in America in recent times, but is not in all reality, sir, a necessary tool to help defend this nation as we seek to identify people who might pose a danger? And is it not the case that necessarily innocent people may have to be detained because of certain characteristics about them, not detained in any permanent sense, but given a special measure of scrutiny just in the interest of public safety?

ASHCROFT: Well, we are scrutinizing all individuals who are boarding aircraft. Our airport security's been upgraded. We are securing the airports as well as the entry gates for particular flights. And when there are factors that elevate that any suspicion that there's a problem, we take action. That's why you've found a number of new security measures imposed.

But we are not at the place of saying that people are suspects based solely on their race or ethnic origin.

SNOW: Mr. Attorney General, a lot of Americans right now are anxious. They fear that terrorists could strike any day. We have children fearing going to school and so on. Are these people overreacting?

ASHCROFT: Well, I think the people should operate with a heightened awareness. This is an enormous, worldwide terrorist effort. It's a network. They operate around the world. Much of the world has encountered the kind of problems we've encountered recently in previous settings.

This activity has come to the United States. We should operate with a heightened awareness, but we should continue to operate as Americans.

We've taken extra measures, and we are going to take substantial additional measures. We're pursuing over 40,000 leads. We have 4,000 FBI agents working this matter aggressively. We've enlisted with a number of bulletins and other communications the aid of all law enforcement around the country. We have indicated to those who are in charge of infrastructure, locations that might be sensitive, that they should be especially aware and careful about the way in which they conduct themselves.

This is a war that has been launched against the United States, and we need to understand that, but we do not need to cease being the United States of America in response to these attacks.

HUME: Mr. Attorney General, we keep talking about foreign networks and cells and so on, but, as we know, a lot of these people had been in this country, and some for a very long time indeed. There are obviously others. To what extent do you, as the head of the Justice Department, privy to what intelligence we have, believe that a lot of the rooting out that needs to be done needs to be done on American soil?

ASHCROFT: There's no question about it, that we are working toward developing a keen understanding and awareness of any associates of these hijackers, and developing a better information about the threat that would exist within our own borders.

That's why we're going to the Congress in the next few days to ask them to assist us with upgrades to our laws relating to terrorism, the detection of it, our ability to detain individuals who have been involved or are associated in terrorist events, especially those who are not citizens of the United States and those whose stay here is at the invitation of the United States but they're aliens in our culture. If they have violated the law, we're going to have to make sure we know how to deal with them and have the capacity to do so effectively.

SNOW: Mr. Attorney General, Secretary of State Colin Powell has said repeatedly that we are close to figuring out who's guilty for the attacks. How close are we?

ASHCROFT: Well, obviously, both the secretary of state and the president of the United States have said that the Osama bin Laden network is a prime suspect. It's pretty clear from the nature of these acts, they were complex, they were well-organized, they were well-orchestrated...

SNOW: Let me ask you very quickly, sir, is it conceivable to you that anyone other than Osama bin Laden would be behind it?

ASHCROFT: The kind of cooperation that has existed in recent months and years between terrorist organizations makes it possible that a variety of individuals could be involved. And we are not limiting our investigation or our effort to any particular network.

SNOW: All right. Attorney General John Ashcroft, thank you for joining us from Camp David.

New Yorkers have refused to let Tuesday's attack keep them down, and nobody has played a bigger role in bolstering morale than the city's mayor, Rudy Giuliani. He joins us now.

Mr. Mayor, you, unlike any of us, have been in the rubble of the World Trade Center. Can you describe to us what you've seen and what the situation's like there?

MAYOR RUDOLPH GIULIANI (R), NEW YORK: I think it's going to take me the rest of my life to describe it. It's an incredible experience. I was there when the first and second building collapsed, had to escape from a building, relocate city government. It's quite an experience. And I -- for the last couple of days, though, the focus has to be on rebuilding, and then we can go back and analyze what happened and how it happened.

And the city is making unbelievable, remarkable progress with tremendous help from President Bush, Governor Pataki, the city, the state, the Congress. They've all come together.

And New Yorkers feel very much part of America. We're, you know, we're being supported in ways that we're not even used to.

(LAUGHTER)

There's always been like this little rivalry between New York and the rest of the country. That's over with now. We're all Americans, and we're all in it together.

HUME: Mr. Mayor, you may be able to help us out a bit, though, with something that we try to do in this business, which is to convey to people a sense of what it is like to be there. Our cameras are close, but they're not that close.

We really haven't been able, despite the photography we've done, to get a sense of what it looks like at that point there in that rubble, what it looks like, what it smells like, what it sounds like. Can you describe that for us?

GIULIANI: It's different. It's different than what you see on television, and far worse.

HUME: How so?

GIULIANI: I probably saw that when Governor Pataki and I brought President Bush there, particularly when we came in by helicopter, and the president for the first time got to look at it. Now, President Bush has probably seen the site a million times from the point of view of television footage, aerial photography, like we all have. But when he actually saw it from the helicopter, I could see on his face the kind of surprise and the kind of shock.

The devastation is worse. It looks like the scenes that we have in our memories of the pictures, I guess, of the second world war with the attack on Britain, except actually I think the devastation in one area may actually be worse. It's not as widespread, obviously, throughout the city as it was in Britain.

And here it is now, you know, on the Sunday after that Tuesday, and there's still smoke that is emanating from it. I flew over it again yesterday, and it's amazing that there's still smoke emanating from the site. And then you realize that there are seven buildings down, two of the tallest in the world, it's impossible to describe.

HUME: I know you're going to try to get the city up and running tomorrow, the financial district up and running tomorrow, but there are other buildings in the immediate vicinity there that are described as shaky, damaged, unstable. Give us a sense of how many more buildings may be unusable and for how long. How bad is that collateral damage, if you will?

GIULIANI: The hot zone, the area where the recovery efforts are going to have to take place, that's still isolated and sealed off. What we've been able to do is to open, or hopefully now open tomorrow, the area that's near it but not actually in the hot zone. Broadway is probably the dividing line. West of Broadway is going to remain closed for quite some time as we try to save lives, remove the debris and rebuild. But east of Broadway, hopefully, that's largely going to be open.

SNOW: Mr. Mayor, in recent days, we've seen Americans lining the streets with candles and flags. In New York they're applauding as firemen and rescuers go by. How has this changed the heart of New York and of America?

GIULIANI: Made it stronger. That's no exaggeration at all. New Yorkers are much, much stronger than they were before. They're united. They're very, very resolved to not let this affect them, let it in any way affect our spirit. They are...

SNOW: Has crime gone down on in New York as it has elsewhere?

GIULIANI: Pardon me?

SNOW: I'm sorry. Has crime gone down in New York as it has elsewhere in the last week?

GIULIANI: Yes, sure. Up until the time this incident took place, crime was down 13 percent in New York and homicide was down 12 percent. And this week I think we had even larger declines than that. So the reality is that the rest of the city is functioning really very, very well.

SNOW: How's this affected your faith?

GIULIANI: It's made it much stronger. I was just reflecting on the week since this is now Sunday, and when I woke up this morning, my first reaction is thank God we got to Sunday and here it is and people can now reflect back on what happened.

And I've been reading about the battle of Britain as a way of trying to understand an analogy of what we're going through. And what it's done is restore my faith in democracy, made it even stronger. We had the right form of government.

We deal with humanity and human beings correctly, meaning America. There are people who don't understand that, people who attack us, and people who hate us. But we're stronger than they are, and we're going to demonstrate that.

SNOW: All right. Mayor Rudy Giuliani, thanks for joining us today.

GIULIANI: Thank you very much.

***

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